marg

I want to ask Think Draw to change the way that 'highest rated' and 'Top 5' are determined :

My request is that:

1) ratings are accumulative - i.e. a straight total of every 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 rating given to a picture - highest total is top

2) if 2 or more pics have the same total, than the one with the most '5's is tops

3) if they're still equal, than the one with most '4's, followed by '3's, '2's and finally '1's

4) if they're still equal.. than the first submitted (earliest) is top

N.B. it's total bull hockey to say that pictures submitted late in the month have less chance - we all know the rules (midnight of last day, TD time) and the fact is that most pics get most of their votes in the first 24 hours.. see Miss_Dagny's 'Jumper', if you don't believe me).

Plus side.. anyone who wants to vote a '1' is still adding to the rating - and everyone else can rate a pic according to what they really think it's worth (maybe 1-2 for 'nice effort' or 4 for 'really good', without having to rate everything a 5 or blast the picture's chances).

My serious request to Rachel and Think Draw is - can we PLEASE try this for May ??

I'm about to submit a pic, and would ask anyone who agrees with my request to just rate it a 1 - with EVERY rating meaning 'Yes, agree'.

http://www.thinkdraw.com/picture.php?pictureId=39432

I think if we could just trial this for one month, we wouldn't keep losing our best and brightest artists.

Thanks,
marg

Login

I've got mixed feelings, marg. It's true that "most pics get most of their votes in the first 24 hours.. " so the cut off date is not so important to late submissions as has been claimed. However, on that basis, I still think a comment should = a vote, with the vote being restricted to each persons first comment on any drawing. In other words, everybody's vote would be a 1 vote. The only way that could be manipulated would be with multiple user names and loyalty voting ... but it would reduce the gamesmanship to some extent.

marg

I don't think I've heard that proposal being put forward so succinctly before now ! .. in fact, I'm not sure I've actually seen this proposal until now..

Just thinking.. that would mean that if you didn't like a pic, you couldn't comment, right ? .. that might not be a bad idea - and it also resolves the issue of the 'unknown' voter.

There is no way to stop loyalty voting - or multiple user names - so what I consider to be low-value drawings will continue to make the Top 5 ahead of good ones.. but then.. this ISN'T an art site, and we don't have competent, objective judges.

I think this may be a lot harder to implement than my suggestion - I only wanted to try mine for a month ! - but if you put this forward, I'll guarantee my support.

Login

The issue of the unknown voter is possibly the biggest problem. If votes are linked to comments, they are open and count as one vote ... and only one, with each vote being accounted for ... no anonymity.

kmkagle

I don't know if my thoughts count. It's not right that someone can have endless user names and that power of using them for their own gain. I agree with Marg and Login. Get rid of the shoes causing the blister!

LadyO

Back when I was whining about harrassment, I did suggest that the votes be open ... in other words, that people could see how you voted.

The only problem I see with tying it in with the comments is that you limit some lively back and forth -- which is often as much fun as the drawings themselved.

You'll never stop the multiple users issue -- there are always work arounds

LadyO

I should add, tying the vote to the comment is fine as long as we could continue to make additonal comments.

marg

yep.. I think that was what Login meant when she said the vote should be tied to the 1st comment someone makes..

you couldn't limit the additional rude/funny/silly comments - they're what makes it all fun !

five

A system in which a comment = vote, even if it did solve the concern about malicious one voting, is short sighted in terms of welcoming people and maintaining/growing the community feel. We should be able to add words of encouragement even if we don't think a picture is great without the words of encouragement having to be a vote.

A pure accumulation voting system does nothing to dampen the effect of people just having friends (or multiple IDs) give them 5s regardless of merit of their drawing; indeed, it exaggerates that effect. Given the proposed tie-breaking criteria, I also doubt you really would end up in a different place if the perceived problem is malicious 1 voting on pictures otherwise obtaining strings of 5s (as opposed to a mix of 4s and 5s, which in general is not the complaint or pattern).

Removing anonymity might help dissuade 1 votes (if the profile is at least meaningfully email address verified, or better, ISP verified) although some people might be reluctant to vote less than a 5 out of concern that they would be down voted in retribution.

There is no voting system that cannot be gamed. The best one can do is a weighted average, using an algorithm to toss out outlying data (e.g. if its 20 5s and one 1, the 1 is a clear outlier and should be ignored in the calculation) and/or data that reflects a pattern of abuse (e.g. a string of 1s in a very short period of time on a high ranked picture), which I thought in effect is the current system.

I'd rather see TD solve the "save draft" problems first.

LadyO

Five, I couldn't agree more about the "saved" comment.

As for tossing out the low votes, one could simply average them, I suppost.

Another option would be just a "yes" vote. No numbers. If you like a piece of art, for whatever reason, you vote for it. Then it's a simple matter of the number of votes, not the rank.

LadyO

I meant "suppose" ... I vote that we can edit our comments!!

five

LadyO, I mean literally toss them -- don't include the outliers in the final average for Top 5 purposes (once included, the random 1 vote on a pic with all 5s does significantly impact the ranking as compared to a picture that got all 5s without being randomly 1 voted down).

DMarcella

After reading this I think the idea of just a vote button is a great, maybe the best idea. My idea of votes up to 40 points could be abused so easily. I was thinking on the lines that Five mentioned of verification of ID somehow but I didn't know how it might be implicated. Five's idea of, "Email address verified, or better, ISP verified" would be great ideas. When we sign up we should get a automated e-mail that we have to verify before we are accepted in. I don't know anything about ISP verification maybe Five can touch more on that.

marg

Agreed..

ANY attempt to navigate away from the 'Draw' panel should be trapped, with a warning about losing the draft .. and I think we'd all like to be able to delete comments (edit might be a bit hard !).

The rating system will always be open to abuse - although I really like the idea of having an 'anonymous' option - but the people who get voted up now would find a way to make sure people knew who's picture it was.

marg

Oh.. and DM.. anyone can create as many 'authentic' free email addresses as they want..

DMarcella

I already e-mailed Rachel asking if I can have my drawings moved over to my new user and have the old account deleted. If this can be done for all of us with more than one account we then could verify our e-mail addresses and may in turn help keep some of these problems at bay.

marg

no, no, DM.. you having two users isn't a problem, as you've been very open and honest about that ..

what I meant was that you will never be able to stop people having multiple users, basically because they don't have the same high principles that you do, so any of us could create an OVB user at any time

kmkagle

I'm asking "if I may" because I don't think people want to hear anything I have to say!" There's nothing wrong with having multiple accounts. It's abusing them and using them for your own gain that is wrong! Like, voting for yourself and commenting for yourself.

marg

.. and please DON'T get rid of DMarla.. I always loved her pics !

kmkagle

OK. Thank you very much!