chelydra

The double-message that arrived as I was penning (henpecking) my last reply raises an important question - well, a lot of important questions, but it was a very mundane question that came first to mind. And that question concerns the rules of this forum. Should we try to maintain some vestiges of the normal rules of all human discourse, or abandon all pretense of sense and civility? To be more specific, what I mean is: Should we expect people to actually read what they think they're replying to, so as to maintain some coherence and logic and structure to our discussions here?
This is about irony.... Have I ever said one word about irony, here or in any of our previous dialogues? I know I used the word once, when I told this forum's first visitor that I did not realize she was being ironic in her first comment. But I don't think I ever claimed that I was trying to be ironic, and it doesn't seem like a very productive use of our precious time and space here to start trying to defend a position I never took.

chelydra

Oh... maybe you were refering to clorophilia's saying that SHE was being ironic... But can't you let her be the judge of that?

chelydra

Here's another question relating to whether one should actually read the words one is commenting upon, citing, or replying to... Did Plato's ever actually say, or even imply, that those famous shadows of his were "worthless"? Or any Greek adjective that might be construed as "worthless"?
Since Plato (if I understand this famous little story correctly) was saying that the entire material universe, all of Creation in all its glory, was merely a shadow (compared to the mystic experience of beholding the Source of All face to face)... I kinda doubt that was the case....
Even the most militant and obsessive religious fanatic would have to admit, I think, that if the material universe (all of Creation) serves ONLY to give us a clue that there must be a light-source to produce that shadow (thereby leading us to swivel around and behold the Light), that function is hardly "worthless" - unless you believe that the experience of seeing the Light is itself worthless... which would I suppose account for your stubborn resistance to all my (our) efforts to enlighten you....

chelydra

But of course if I am now and henceforth coming out of the closet as an Agent of Satan (I refuse to abandon that moniker even if you're trying to demote me to merely "devilish" now), I suppose it's my mission now not to enlighten but to endarken...
(and on that note I will end this series of messages before it turns into another of my over-inflated long-winded extravaganzas)(if it hasn't already crossed the line)

chelydra

I just came back to say I'm starting to get a very bad feeling about this project (this forum, and specifically my own verbiage). For one thing, I find Satanism very unattractive, to put it mildly — even some (not all) of the people I've met who say they are "good witches" give me the creeps. The dark side of the occult was something that attracted a lot of the worst Nazis, not to mention L. Ron Hubbard just before he launched his cult-leader career. But a more important point is that it's pretty obvious (even to me, all of a sudden) that turning my ThinkDraw identity into this thing (whatever it is) is not a good decision. It's a lot like what I was haranguing Radrook about — following an impulse to say something clever, before thinking it through. And then it sits here, and sits here, and sits here, going stale and starting to stink after a little while... Or maybe it stinks right away if your nose is particularly sensitive.

chelydra

"A more important point" meaning "more to the point" in producing this bad feeling (in the previous message). Clorophilia no doubt intended her saying this is a bad idea to be ironic (since that's what she said it was intended to be), but satires and parodies have a disheartening habit of turning out to be just plain old everyday truth.
If this effort inspired one brief chuckle in its intended victim/beneficiary, and if that bright moment translates into just a little more care and thought before pulling the trigger to send future defensive-offensive messages, it has already served its purpose. And if it hasn't by now, it never will.
Perhaps it can serve other purposes in the future. We'll see.

Radrook

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
Contention

See also Rebellion


Strife, arguing, and disputations. Contention, especially between members of the Lord’s Church or between family members, is not pleasing to the Lord.


Let there be no strife between me and thee, Gen. 13: 8. Pride causes contention, Prov. 13: 10. If any man have a quarrel against any, forgive as Christ forgave, Col. 3: 13. Avoid foolish questions and contention, Titus 3: 9.

The Lord commands men not to contend with one another, 2 Ne. 26: 32. Ye will not suffer your children to fight and quarrel with one another, Mosiah 4: 14. Alma commanded that there be no contention among Church members, Mosiah 18: 21. Satan spreads rumors and contention, Hel. 16: 22.




The devil is the father of contention and stirs up men to contend with one another, 3 Ne. 11: 29 (Mosiah 23: 15). Establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention, D&C 10: 62-64. Cease to contend with one another, D&C 136: 23.


http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/c/56

chelydra

Thanks! A lovely and thoughtful conclusion. And if I'm wrong in thinking we finally got where we needed to go (by this very circuitous route), please don't tell me I am. Take care, I've gotta devote some time now to catching up with real life (such as it is). (Not that this hasn't felt real, in a way, but it's not bringing home the bacon.)

chelydra

Closing credits and acknowledgements roll down the screen as audience rises from seats, skips the standing ovation, and charges to the exits gasping for fresh air...
to five for her suggestion
to clorophilia for getting us started
to hazer for her cheerful little visit
to whoever else i'm forgetting
and finally (last but certainly not least)
to Radrook
for being such a good sport and for concluding on such a positive note


T H E E N D

Radrook

Excerpt:


Authorities inform us that one of the characteristics of this age is the unwillingness on the part of many to admit they could be wrong. The Bible speaks of such a generation. Could it refer to this age? “There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness” (Prov. 30:12). These are the kind of people who refuse to receive correction; so to contend with them is futile. The book of Proverbs tells us: “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise” (Prov. 12:15). Sometimes counsel comes in the form of solid advice that flies in the face of what one or both parties refuse to believe.

To save face seems to be the most important goal of many. They will defend their view at any cost, even if it is wrong. To win the argument is what they seek. To them it is the most important thing in the world. Yet, Jesus said: “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Matt. 16:26).


People need a proper perspective of the real values of life. This does not include winning arguments. Debate is a work of the flesh (Rom 1:29). So the first thing to consider when any issue arises is: How important is it? If one can accurately evaluate that, he will be on the road to achieving peace-a goal the Bible says is a tremendous blessing for all involved.


http://www.bethelcog.org/church/christian-living-articles/getting-along/getting-along-with-peo ple

chelydra

Amen.

Radrook

1 Peter 3:10 ESV / 183 helpful votes
For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;


Ecclesiastes 3:7 ESV / 43 helpful votes
A time to tear, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

Proverbs 26:20
For lack of wood the fire goes out, and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases.


Ephesians 4:29

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

chelydra

re #30: "a proper perspective on the real values of life" in my experience, can come from LOSING arguments. I was thrilled when LBJ first sent the B-52's to bomb North Vietnam, and indignant, well, no, appalled is more like it, when my enthusiasm was not echoed but crushed. I eventually was on the other side and trying to push Marxism on anyone who would listen, or anyone who wouldn't listen too. Those arguments took many forms but after a while all those gulags and purge trials added up (just like the napalmed kids had added up ten years previously), until I had to accept that for all its valid insights Marxism has not had a great track record in practice.
Logically therefore, winning arguments must also be a legitimate part of "a proper perspective f the real values of life" - since I wouldn't have lost if others hadn't put the effort into making sure I lost (first my anti-communist enthusiasm and later my communist enthusiasm).
One aspect of marxist philosophy I have never doubted is that evolution is driven by conflict and by dialogue, not just in words but in physics, chemistry, and biology — the old thesis-antithesis-synthesis formula applies to all kinds of phenomena... And this can lead us from crude and brutal conflict into peaceful and mutually beneficial relationships. Assuming Darwin is right (or close enough to right, and as right as he could have been, since more details like DNA have come to light since he wrote), not only species but relations between species evolve over time via natural selection... It's really microbes and such that have a "dog-eat-dog world"... it's only in the past few million years that there have appeared such miraculous harmonies as the relationship between honey bees and apple trees - where each gets what it needs from the other and no one gets hurt in the process. It's observations like that, that have lead me to believe that science is the holiest of all scriptures.
Which is perhaps going to light the fuse for a new and more explosive stage of this forum's own evolution...

Radrook

Arguing


Proverbs 15:1
Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm.



2 Timothy 2:23-24
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,



Romans 14:19
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

Radrook

1027. Yesterday 00:22
Radrook


I often do incite and offend, and do it in insidious and calculated ways, and I thrive on conflict though I may pretend not to (I was a political cartoonist in a past life, finding chinks in people's armour and wedging them open) —so it's not that big a deal if you react as if that's what I'm doing even when I'm not

Chrissyjoy

Your observations of nature Chelydra are facinating, honest and true. I like to believe that the relationship between everything in nature, particularly the bee and the tree has been cleverly thought through.... Failing this I just have to believe that it just happened which is much less interesting.

Chrissyjoy

That was a rant, just disguised very well!

Chrissyjoy

Another rant is that you've not yet read my poem on Radrook's page and commented in it!

Radrook

In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).


Some denominations apply this strictly. Others seek a way of understanding that allows women more freedom. Interestingly, the same women who would vehemently tag the literal application of this scripture as bigoted are sometimes the same ones who enjoy trying to deprive others of their freedom of speach.

Radrook

Please feel free to comment on the above scripture on my Let's Talk Christianity thread.

This thread is for acrimonious rants.

Thanks!

Kind Regards amd may God bless you all
Radrook